Dirk, Lerxst, Pratt... and the Caveman!

Exclusive Interview with Geddy Lee

By Neil Elliott and Mick Burnett, Spirit Of Rush #23, Fall/Winter 1993, transcribed by pwrwindows

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My phone rings at work: "Neil it's Geoff (from the record company). I've just arranged something for you, it took a bit of doing but it's confirmed so you CAN'T say no. How would you and Mick fancy interviewing Geddy at 12:30 on Monday?" Well, I was going to do a bit of shopping, but I suppose I can cancel that considering you have gone to such trouble!, I reply. Just try and stop us.

Monday arrives, we get into the city, pouring with rain and head for East/West Records. Soon we are ushered into a conference room where the man sits, Mr Lee himself, yes it is real and not a cruel joke. Geddy sits there in jeans, a black shirt and bottle green tinted glasses! Greetings are exchanged and we sit down to begin.

SOR: The album is a marked change of direction, it's a very different style from Roll The Bones.

Geddy: Yeah, it is.

How long was the writing and recording process of the album?

Well I guess we took about two months of writing and rehearsing. After that it was about eight or nine weeks of recording.

Where was the album recorded and mixed?

It was recorded...basic tracks were done in Le Studio, Morin Heights.

There again? You love it there don't you?

Yeah. Well Neil's very comfortable there. Actually they've gone through a bit of renewal there. They've got new owners and they've done the place up a bit. We did drums and bass there, a bit of guitar work. Then we moved into Toronto to McClear Studio's to do most of the guitars, vocals and incidental keyboards.

Places you've been to before a number of times!

Yeah. And we mixed in a new studio, which will remain nameless because we weren't very happy with it. We decided we weren't going to give them a credit anywhere. It was actually a beautiful facility but...

You've used London the last few times for mixing.

Yeah. Well we wanted to mix at home. We hadn't mixed a record at home in ages. We always seem to be robbing ourselves of the ability to take the work you are working on and listen to it on a system you know, which is your home system. So I think it was a great benefit to be able to have a real point of reference as opposed to living in a hotel room and listening on a ghetto blaster.

Peter Collins, did you want him back?

Yes, I did very much. Peter's a great guy. We've worked with him before, he's very professional and we've remained good friends, and we just felt after the last record that it was two records per producer, it was time to change. So really it was change for change sake. We also were interested in changing sonically. I think the last record, although I'm pleased with the way a lot of it sounds, I think there are certain moments on the record that could be more powerful and I think we were itching for a new approach. A drier, and a bigger fatter approach to making our records.

It sounds a very aggressive album, very loud, very angry at times!

It's kind of what we're after.

Were you thinking of any other producers, or was it just Peter?

We talked to Bob Rock, we talked to a number of people. Peter seemed the right guy to use. I think what we wanted to accomplish and how he saw our sound, were very similar. He had some very good suggestions and he was a good choice in the end. The thing I like about Peter is, at the moment he is a very different producer than he was when we first worked with him.

He certainly achieved a very different sound this time.

When we first worked with him he was just making the transition from pop producer to rock producer. And I'd say now he's very much a rock producer, with his experience of Queensryche and so forth have been very good for him and also transplanting himself to America. It was nice, he brought a whole different range of experience to the project than when we worked with him previously.

Did he appear on the album at all, playing anything etc?

He had one cameo vocal that I think ended up getting erased. I don't think there's any Hitchcock like performances, he likes to preclude himself.

Any other guest appearances on the album?

John Webster played keyboards of course, and it was the first time we'd worked with him, and even though he's a fellow countryman, we'd never worked with him before.

There's very little keyboards on the album.

Yeah, very little. He did a lot more that ended up, again, in the bin. Not because the work wasn't good but, we just didn't think we needed it. As was a lot of my original keyboard things, kind of binned as well. Also Michael Kamen of course did the string arrangements.

Is it orchestra?

Yes it is. It was recorded here in London.

At Abbey Road Studios again?

No, I think it was the New Air Studios he used. I don't know. We basically sent him the song, sent him some of our ideas and he sent the tape back with all the stuff on it. I was pleased, I think he did a good job.

Your vocals on the album, your singing in a lower key, they sound different, is that a conscious decision?

I guess. They don't seem that different to me. To me they seem very much in line with the way I've been singing for the last three or four records. If anything I think the style of recording has brought about a bit more depth in my voice. I think they're recorded much more naturally. I think that's really true for every instrument. Number one, the engineer we used was very different stylistically, much less English sounding much more kind of American sounding. Also the end result is much drier, much less echo and reverb of vocals and other instruments.

Just your natural voice then?

Yes, as a result it's a bit more in your face. I think the same with bass/guitar/drums too, it's a bit more... come at you.

Are you playing any different instruments, are you still using the Wal bass?

No. I used my old Fender Jazz bass on this album actually, and I used a different amplification system. It was quite a different approach. This engineer we used, Kevin 'The Caveman' Shirley, he really was a caveman, he was great. He plugged my bass through this old Ampeg amp that someone had pulled out of the garbage I think, and he said 'can I go in and make a few adjustments?' So like sure go ahead. He just cranked the thing through these Trace Elliott cabinets. They looked like they were going to blow up. And that, used in conjunction with the BI system I normally use, a direct system, and I used a bit of the Palmer speaker simulator to give me a bit more of a grungy sound. It worked out pretty well. I was really pleased.

Is that going to be carried through to the live show?

I'll have a new amp set-up although I don't think I'll be able to wrestle that Ampeg away from the guy, he cleaned it up himself out of the garbage, so I think he'll want to hang on to it. I think I'll make do with like a normal amp!

Did Alex bring any new guitars in to the recording process?

Again with him, 'The Caveman' was hammering him pretty well to dump a lot of his effects, which of course, everyone has been yelling at him for years to do, but he wouldn't listen. So now he's re-discovered taking your guitar and plugging it into an amp. Period. And thank god for that.

There's so much raw guitar on this album.

I think this album really shows Alex off in a great light. And I think a big difference in the sound of his guitar is, he didn't play in the control room, he played out there with the amps, in front of the amps, and he used Stratocasters.

On 'Between Sun And Moon,' it definately sounds like a Strat on that.

Yeah. I think it's a Strat, I couldn't be 100% sure. He used Paul Reed Smith, Strats and he used Les Paul's on this album. He hadn't used Les Paul's in years. And he just got straight into a Marshall and a P.V. for the most part. He still uses effects in some areas, but for the most of it that's what he used just the vibration of the amp cranked, vibrating the guitar, it created a lot more sustained sound.

We heard three other titles being mooted about as the album title: Critical Mass, Northern Exposure and Crystal Maze.

Never heard any of those, it's all bullshit!

We also heard there was a song called Lucy & Desi?

No. Bullshit! Never heard of that.

Lyrically the album seems very different. Songs about relationships, opening up, roles in life and a lot of songs seem to be about love. Are you happy singing about that?

Sometimes. I wouldn't say every song is really about love. I mean 'Animate' is really about, it's an interior song, it's not a song about relationships. It's about internal struggle between male and female sides of our personality. 'Stick It Out' is a very different song about all the shit you have to swallow when you're a kid and how easy it is to conform. And it's a song reaffirming the necessities, one way or another, stick to your guns or spit out the feelings, and if you have to use anger sometimes, then so be it. Whatever it takes to keep yourself intact. That's what that song is about.

The opening riff to 'Stick It Out' is so heavy, like Black Sabbath basically, and there's an excellent lead break in the middle of the song by Alex.

I know. He plays great on that track. I think the main riff of the song, which he wrote, is some of the best stuff he's ever done.

Were any of the solos lifted straight from his 8-track this time, like on Roll The Bones?

Well, some of the solos came from his 8-track and occasional textural guitar noises that came from our original demos. There's a lot of guitar stuff, not in that particular song, that was freshly recorded.

Just trying to go through the songs lyrically again: '...Sun And Moon' is about peace of mind and the search for it, wherever you find it. When everything is kind of fucked up in your life, that kind of place you go to inside here (points to head), where everything is okay where you get yourself back together.

'Alien Shore' is about a whole lot of things. So to say that it is about relationships I think sells it short, cheapens what it's about. 'Nobody's Hero' is a song about loss, about the things we idolise that maybe we shouldn't idolise and people that we ignore in our everyday life that maybe are worth thinking about more. Worth more consideration than someone we don't know who impresses us on TV.

Was the person, who apparently, one would presume died of AIDS in the song, was that a friend of Neil's?

I never asked him if it was or not. I didn't really see it as being relevant, to me. If it was a friend of his, then that's why he wrote the song, that's fine. If it wasn't it didn't matter, I took it as a story and that's how I sung all the lyrics on that. So really if you look through the record, 'Speed Of Love' and 'Cold Fire' are songs about relationships, male/female directly, to me that's about it! Everything else is about people, and it's about whether the internal working of the human or how we work in context of one another.

That would be the theme of the album then, beliefs and conflicts?

Yeah, and the Counterparts that we have. The title really to me also refers to the three of us as Counterparts for each other and how you can be very different and have very, on the surface, different feelings towards something but yet you can work in conjunction, you can actually be a Counterpart. So, I think that's what the album is kind of about. To say it's about love is a very narrow view.

Only scratching the surface?

I think so.

What is said at the start of 'Alien Shore?'

I can't tell you that! I will tell you that it is 'The Caveman' screaming into my bass pick-up, before the songs starts. I'll tell you next year.

It sounds like Frank Zappa doing the voice in the middle of 'Double Agent.' But it's Neil yeah?

Does it? That's interesting. No, it's me. But nobody recognises me! I was wearing the same thing I normally wear, I don't understand I didn't change my hair or anything.

Does 'Leave That Thing Alone' have a sub-title? It's not 'Gangster' part 3 or 6 is it?

No. It's not part of 'Gangster Of Boats,' that sank last year. It capsized. This thing is a different thing altogether. It has to do with creative facial hair!

Because Neil has a beard now doesn't he?

We all had different facial hair throughout the making of this record, which really kind of what the title relates too. You find your hand playing with this stubble.

It's a very laid back instrumental compaired to the previous three you've done, it's very easy going.

Yeah, I don't know, I really dig it a lot. I love the musical changes it goes through. I love that rhythmical maximum.

Are you planning to play it live? And how many new songs are you hoping to get into the new live set?

Yes we are and I hope a least five new songs.

The album sounds very much like it's almost back to basics in the studio and one that you can very much enjoy live.

I think it will be. Some of the songs especially 'Animate' and 'Stick It Out' I think will be great to play live. Also 'Alien Shore' will be great to play live, although it'll be tougher to play. It should be fun.

So at least five new songs. Any older songs coming back in?

I would hope, because it's kind of a 20th anniversary with Neil in the band, I would like to, and I haven't discussed this with them, I'd like to see something from every record, if we could. I think it would be a neat idea.

We are currently doing a readers poll in the magazine, and one of the sections is 'Song you would like to hear played live.' At present, out front is 'Afterimage.' Also 'Natural Science' is up there and surprisingly 'Losing It.'

Really? I'll keep that in mind when we put the set together.

A lot of people seem to like the more subtle side of your work.

It's funny, people do seem to be drawn to the more intimate side.

Going back to the last tour, it was a bit of an inspired move to bring back 'The Analog Kid.' It really went down well.

It was great to play too. It'd been years since we'd played it. I'd like to do more of that.

Did Neil suggest bringing that one back?

Yeah he did. At first I was against it, but once we started rehearsing it I realised, fuck yeah, this is a good song. It's reminding me of all the songs I've got to learn.

Are you planning to come to Europe this time around?

I would like to, because I think that the last European tour was probably our most successful. Also we had a great time. We're just getting schedules together and I'd like to think that we can come over here for a few weeks. I guess it remains to be seen how it works out. I shouldn't think it would be before the spring.

When is the tour due to start?

I think early January.

Do you think the live set will be drastically different this time?

I'd like it to be. We're just starting to get ideas together for the show, and certainly, as soon as you walk in you'll realise it's a different set. It's all a bit early.

Are you planning any videos for any of the songs on the new album?

Well we're talking about it. We're a little torn whether to do them or not. Some people love us to do our videos and... it's a bit like pulling teeth getting them done. A lot of our videos have been unsatisfying. It's just something conceptually about them that robs the listener of their own interpretation of the song. So I think if we did another video it would certainly be one that didn't take away from the mystery of the song, but maybe added to it. Maybe that's the direction to go.

You only did one video from Roll The Bones didn't you? Which was probably one of the best videos you've done I think.

Oh good. I thought it was our best video.

I expected to see the backdrop of the video on the tour.

It was too heavy. That was a motherfucker to build that thing. We may be doing a video for 'Stick It Out,' beyond that I can't tell you.

Have you ever been approached to do anything like MTV Unplugged? Would you do it if you were?

Would I do it? Probably not. Aren't there enough "Unplugged" things running around?

You don't fancy doing an acoustic set?

An acoustic set. I wouldn't mind doing a couple of acoustic songs, that's a possiblity. I could see maybe even a song like 'Nobody's Hero' being acoustic live. That might be a possibility, I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud.

Do you think you'll expand on any of the new songs live like you did on some of the "Bones" tracks?

I'd like too. I like to stretch things out more, it was fun, it kept us more interested in the show too!

We saw your vocal duties at the baseball game here on satellite TV when you performed your national anthem. Was that nerve-racking?

Was that on here? Yeah it was nice of them to tell me it's going to 80 countries before I walk out there! Say, thanks a lot, you could have told me afterwards. It was a bit nerve-racking yeah, but it was fun and I'm glad I did it; just because of being a baseball fan. It was nice to be at that event in that capacity, so it was a good memory, nothing more nothing less.

Have you any outside projects completed or planned for the future with other people or guest appearances?

No, nothing at the moment.

How did you get involved with the Mendelson Joe album?

Joe's a friend of mine. I've known him a long time and he's kind of an eccentric artist in Toronto. He's just a friend and one of these guys who struggles to get his music heard, and I was just happy to help him out.

Did it take long to record your bits, a couple of days?

No. Half an hour an hour. A quick one. He does his records very low budget.

Thought you might be sporting your "Artists of the Millenium" medal? It must have been an honour?

No that's in a secret place. It was fantastic. It was very heap fun, big heap fun. The party the night before though was the initiation; of course, I can't tell you about it because I'm sworn to secrecy. It was very funny. It was wild because they had a cocktail party for us in the Harvard Castle there, the Lampoon Castle, it was a black tie thing and dinner with this whole ritual and it was cool.

Had you finished recording the album when you did that?

No we were right in the middle. It was a welcome break zipping down to Boston.

Are you negotiating a new record deal yet, as this album is going to be the last of the current deal?

Yeah we have, we've negotiated an extension with Atlantic Records. We're probably gonna stay there for a few more records.

No set number yet?

Three I think.

Would that possibly include a live set somewhere along the way?

Very possibly.

What is Alex's current sporting activity? Has he got off the golf?

Golf, golf and more golf. He's out of his mind for golf. We've lost him to golf.

What about yourself?

I still play tennis and cycle. More cycling these days.

You were into SCUBA diving weren't you?

Last winter I tried it for the first time and I enjoyed it. Not feverishly addicted to it but I thought it was cool to do. It's one of those things that you really should try.

Is Neil still peddling around? Has he recently been off to Africa or Asia etc.?

Absolutely. He's somewhere in Europe now. I don't think he's peddling, I think he's on holiday with his wife. I think he's got a trip planned in November somewhere. I don't know where.

Going back in time a bit, 'Entre Nous,' was it originally going to be in its English equivalent 'Between Us' and was later changed, can you remember? The reason I ask is on the original pressings of the album here, on the label instead of 'Different Strings' they put 'Between Us' as track 2 and 'Entre Nous' as track 1.

Well it's funny because originally 'Entre Nous' was always called 'Entre Nous' and 'Different Strings' was called 'Between Us.' At the last minute we just decided it was too confusing, so let's change the title.

You never performed 'Entre Nous' live to our knowledge, did you?

I don't think so. I remember rehearsing it, I don't know if we ever played it live or not. We may have played it and then realised we weren't crazy about it. [webmaster note: "Entre Nous" would first be performed live on the 2007 leg of the Snakes & Arrows tour; it was replaced by "Ghost of a Chance" on the 2008 leg.]

Going back a bit further, something else that is a bit of a mystery to a lot of fans is the Caress Of Steel album and exactly how much of that was played live. There doesn't seem to be anything documenting exactly what was played live.

Well, quite a lot of it at one point. That was a very unsuccessful tour. Well 'Bastille Day' was played, if I can remember the songs on the record, 'I Think I'm Going Bald,' 'The Fountain,' not the whole thing, the first part of it, ten minutes or something.

At the time you were support slot with only 30-45 minutes most of the time, so things were limited.

Exactly. 'Lakeside Park' was played. I don't think I could name you another song on that. Are there any others?

'The Necromancer,' which you played live on your first tour here.

Actually quite a bit of it.

Your double-neck, you sold it to Andrew MacNaughtan didn't you?

Yeah. It was a foolish move. I still consider that he's renting it from me.

Did Andrew do the photos on the new album jacket?

There are actually no new photos on the album jacket. They're all candid shots that he took from the last tour. The cover's quite an interesting melange of things.

When we interviewed Andrew a few years ago in Seattle, he said that you couldn't remember much about recording your first single, and didn't even have a copy!

I always say that. But I remember it very clearly and I do have a copy of it.

It's worth a few bob now.

Probably. I don't need the money! It's there and it sounds really rinky-dink and it's a really shitty song!

It's 20 years ago now that you recorded that, 1973, anything planned for the 20th anniversary of Neil joining the band other than perhaps playing a song off every album?

Don't know yet, it's early days. We had our first production meeting last week, so things are still shaping up. I can tell you that Howard Ungerleider is back with us, and we have the same crew and Howard has got some surprises planned. It should be a fun tour.

At the last show of the "Bones" tour in Chicago, at the World Amphitheater, I couldn't really see, but had Neil shaved his head?

Yeah. He shaved it and left a mohawk. He didn't show us until the last song, he stood up and took his bandana off. There's a picture of him with his mohawk on the album cover that he took in the bathroom of that gig, where Andrew shaved his head for him and he's sitting on this toilet with this look on his face. It was such a surprise and he looked really goofy when he did it. People have this image of Neil as this heavy guy and he's really just a goof.

All through your career you've had that though, as though you are too serious etc.

It's like that instrumental question you asked me is an example of what has plagued us our whole career, you write a song and come up with 13 goofy titles and pick one, and it's regarded with some great significance. When all it's talking about is our facial hair.

Why was All The World's A Stage such a drag to record?

That was our first one wasn't it? It was just nerve-racking that's all, because we'd never recorded live before. When that record was finished we couldn't help but think that we'd played better than this, I didn't think it really captured us at our best, but yet there it was on the record.

With the next one Exit...Stage Left it was probably over-produced.

It was over produced, absolutely. A big mistake. You make mistakes, that was one of them. We tried to make it very perfect sounding, but you can't do that.

Is the recording process much easier now? You seem so professional in doing it, you're in and out in no time, not like Def Leppard who take four years to record an album, or one note!

They're a different kind of band. With us now, rehearsal is the most important thing. We've got our producer there with us, we've got our songs written in pre-production and Neil and I, particularly Neil, rehearses like a mad man, two weeks non-stop rehearsing every song. So when it comes to making a record you're not writing anymore, you're really just trying to capture the performance and get a good sound. He did drum tracks in two and a half days, which is unheard of. It's staggering! He was like a man possessed, he wanted to get them done quickly, he was ready, "I'm psyched, let's go". 'Caveman' was great because he recorded them, I think, the best recording of Neil's drums ever. They sound so real and big, powerful. That's really how his drums sound to me standing near him. It's the first record, I think, that's really captured his drums. He was ready to go and so was 'The Caveman.'

Was Peter Collins happy with all your demos or did he ask you to change bits and pieces to any songs?

He helped us on a few songs, some intensive rewrites. He's a great song guy, there's not many guys like him left around, producers that have that kind of respect for the songs.

There seems to be so many melodies on the album; more so than on the last few, would that be his influence?

No, I think a lot of that was already there. A lot of that was the way I've been writing vocal melodies for the last couple of years. To me, I've been working pretty closely to get Neil's lyrics to a point where I'm not weighed down by them; where they have more of a flow and there's more room for me to sing, and sing freely, put more emotion into the lyrics and it's always been a bit of a problem in the past. You know, how many words per square inch can you put in a song? He's been so great to work with, I think he's come to appreciate my potential as a singer and he writes accordingly and he has no conpunction if I'm having trouble with a couple of words, he'll just come up with something else or if I want to change them a little bit here and there so it suits a little better, he has no problem.

A lot of the way I write now, is me taking his lyrics and I have to feel some sort of melodic, almost like bio-feedback, I have to get some buzz from it myself before I think it's appropriate to carry it any further. A lot of the songs, the reason the melody's so strong is because the melody comes first and the song is written around it. As opposed to the old days we used to write just bags of instrumental stuff, scratch some lyrics off and groove them together and then start to mould them and fine tune them. Whereas very much now our lyrics are a script and the melody is what the song must serve. So, its changed a lot and a lot of the harmonies are written by me at the outset.

A song like 'Stick It Out' for example, harmonies were written as one vocal part and they were definately a stylistic experiment. So they were written in the early stages of the song, and that's an example of a song that was written before lyrics, that song was completed before we had any lyrics. Neil then write lyrics.

So you gave the completed song to Neil to finish off?

Yeah, we gave it to him and he wrote the lyrics for that song. It goes both ways but it's a very complimentary relationship to each other. Why again I think the title of the album is so apt.

You still get that buzz, that's your favourite time, writing and creating new music together?

It is by far. Recording is real craftsmanship, it's labour intensive. It's difficult. Especially mixing I find it an incredibly neurotic time, where you have to concentrate so hard and we have to try to avoid compromising the music, and I think this is one of the first album's we've mixed where I don't feel like we compromised the sounds. I think we were able to get the record sounding heavy, get Alex's guitar up front without compromising the drum or bass sound. It was a difficult achievement and I was really pleased the way we approached it. We had a plan from the beginning to use two engineers, we knew right from the beginning whoever was going to record it was not going to mix it! We've never tried that before and it was very important to us to do that this time. So we looked for specific engineers and in a way we were happy because we looked for unknown guys, guys that were good but not famous.

Michael [Letho] who mixed the record is very well respected and well known in his land, Australia, but he was kind of an unknown quantity so, we took a bit of a chance using these guys and I was so thrilled that it worked out because they were both so good. And 'The Caveman' for all its worth, he's got a very coarse style but he's really fabulous to work with and I think he got us really enthusiastic and he has a real indominable spirit that I think was very refreshing for us to work with.

It shows on the album, it's very rounded and complete. Thank you Geddy for your time, see you on tour, hopefully here, if not in your hometown.

Okay, thank you.

Special thanks go to Geddy for his time, and especially once again, to Geoff Gillespie at East/West for his endeavours in setting everything up, a true gent in the finest tradition, cheers mate!